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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lithe View Post

    That's skill...that is your opponent didn't have any lol.

    Also pointing out only his speed...after looking at both characters it's easy to see who has the better gear lol. Well even then I'd have to see the augs too, but it seems you didn't quite have the foresight to show that.

    But seriously, being better than crappy players just doesn't give me that feel-good sensation that it gives you guys, I guess. I'll just chalk this up to different standards.

    Oh and I kinda want to mention, I don't think I ever really claimed to be better than champ winners. What I did claim is that it's not really skillful to win a champ in this game. Obviously it takes a competitive edge, whether it be time, efforts, or skill, but the skill itself is hardly there in comparison to the other costs of the game (i.e. grinding or buying enough cores and black boxes for good gear). It wouldn't disprove my argument, but if you really wanted to showcase skill, feel free to take a vid of you getting to apoc 40+ with no cryos (bosses are okay I guess, but still yet...) in maps other than VIP and Ice Station (obviously player 2 can't be using cryos either or you could just leech off of their cryos). I'll take that as a significantly increased skillful endeavor. You can even make it harder by doing it with two people that have only uncored [RED] gear, but I understand that is more time-consuming than skillful.

    But the minute you relegate the difficulty of a game to a "cheesing" tactic, that isn't skill, at least not to me. In fact, the very existence of this tactic is my whole argument in the first place because you can just cheese everything and use minimal skill to not die.
    I see nothing unskillful about using available resources to aid in your survival. According to your logic trying to do wave 40+ in apoc with no guns, for example, would be skillful, but in practice that's simply something stupid to do because there is simply no way it's possible. We can apply your false logic to skills and armor as well. For example getting to wave 40 in apoc with no skills (as in the "skills" in the game that you invest with skill points, not physical skills), once again according to your logic, would be considered skillful. However in reality it's simply impractical and doesn't seem very possible. The same can be said for armor. Although not using cryos isn't as extreme as not using guns or armor, it is the same idea. While it is completely possible to get to wave 40, in fact even wave 52 without using cryos besides on bosses, it makes no sense to do so as it doesn't display any form of skill but rather luck. For getting to wave 40 (or 52) without cryos to be possible you can't have any dark minion mobs besides shamblers, especially outside of Ice Station. Even with the aid of bio bomb and medkits it still seems like quite a stretch to not throw cryos and make it to wave 40 with multiple dark minion types. Additionally you fail to mention that cryo tactics are skill. Someone with less exposure to apoc may think "oh you just spam" and call it easy. However from my experience it's been evident that throwing cryos in one way vs another can yield significantly more effective results. Range, timing, prediction and direction are all factors that pertain to skill when using cryos. You may think "oh you just move your mouse and press c". I can say the same about FPS games, you just move your mouse and aim. But in practice is it that simple? No. The same can be said for cryos to an extent. And if you are implying I have no skill by your flawed logic, I have in fact gotten to wave 40+ many times without using cryos on mobs (I sometimes don't start cryoing until after wave 40+ simply because it's unnecessary) and several times even wave 52 (not that they are accomplishments of any sort nor do they display exceptional skill). It is evident that your logic is flawed in multiple ways and that there's nothing unskillful about using cryos, but rather it's a skill to be able to use them effectively.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lithe View Post

      Yeah basically. The initial argument was that this game doesn't take skill due to the existence of "cheese" strats like cryos (mainly cryos, actually). Everything else is carried by good gear and computers. It otherwise takes minimal skill to get the hang of cryo spamming and godly guns will easily take the majority out of aiming in general since you'll kill so fast it'll take minimal shots to kill zombies. Don't try to tell me that executing this competently is even remotely difficult for normal people. This is where I'd supplement my minimal experience and all around complacency as support.
      Furthremore don't tell me it took skill to get lucky and get cores/good [BLACK] gear every box you opened. On the other hand, if you figure out how to properly manipulate the RNG to get you this, I'd make an exception.

      Finally, to facilitate all of this you get a good computer so you can do it for longer, and that's about it in regards to winning championships. Therefore you can claim any amount of skill you like in other endeavors and be an all-around good gamer or even person, but winning champs here isn't anything that could contribute to that claim.

      Admittedly I have little experience in VS since getting through a mere 5 games is already hard for me (bored out of my mind) and I also don't have a character that can remotely compete at the 100 rank unless I note my competition consists entirely of idiots and people with even worse gear.

      At the lower ranks for VS though, I'm pretty sure the majority of competitive players hate me, but even so I'm not playing or trying VS that often so I can't properly make that claim since I'm sure I'm missing the majority of low-leveled VS players anyway. So of course to follow my own rhetoric I'm not going to claim that I'm any good either. But from what I've seen, neither are any of you.
      As I proved in the post above your argument about cryos is flawed in multiple ways. I also disagree that "you'll kill so fast it'll take minimal shots to kill zombies". Your claims with lack of acknowledgement of many realistic factors suggest you are quite a novice in apoc, so I would like to inform you that as waves in apoc progress the health, speed, attack speed and damage of zombies significantly increase. In combination with lag during late game apoc, it is quite unrealistic to "kill so fast". This is especially true for common mobbing weapons like the hiks 3100, and the trident for certain mob types. For example the trident, even when used on a max damage heavy build with 25 HTL, 25 critical shot and a titan helmet, struggles to kill elite shielders efficiently. The hiks 3100, on the other hand, struggles greatly with bloaters, whether elite or not, and can potentially struggle against certain elite resistant shielders and stalkers. As for aiming, once again it's not as simple as you say. Due to response lag in late apoc (sometimes it's only a little bit other times it's more, depending on mobs and partner) it is essential to predict the movement of (sanic) zombies to survive and time accurately. That being said, winning championship does in fact require a significant amount of skill. (As for your claim about a good computer, I already presented solid evidence that a good computer is nowhere near necessary for diamond.) Once again your logic here is just as flawed as the one about cryos. As for virus samples, I don't see how you are in any position to call all of us bad. What's even funnier is you admit you are bad then call everyone else bad, quite hypocritical of you, eh?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Meralla View Post

        I strongly suspect we have a different definition of "horrible PC". If he played way back, before the new points system was introduced, it might have been more likely, but I still doubt, that his PC was really so bad. Right now it is definitely impossible to get a top 3 place with a crap PC. Apo games will crash before you can get close to 2000 points and in VS you are too much slowed down by lag at high levels.




        Longer in the past everyone who just opened SAS counted for the leaderboards of the events, even if they didn't play a game. They changed that, which reduced the number of players quite a lot. But if you are talking about a more recent change, then it really can be only explained with less real players. The game is getting older. People will get bored of it and stop playing, while not enough new players come on-board.
        Please explain how a PC with an AMD Phenom 920 is any good. The amount of lag he had was enough evidence to prove that his PC was in fact horrible. As of right now it is definitely possible to get top 3 with a crap PC, although it would require a significant amount of assistance in virus samples. From my experience even players with bad PC's don't seem to crash in apoc. As for your claim about people getting bored, I agree to an extent, however it would take quite a while before most of the players stop playing.

        Comment


        • #49
          Nah it's not hypocritical. The fact that I can use lazy self as a reference point is all I need to know. Also implying that "super sanic" zombies even compare to teleporters and blinkers lol. The fact that you can even see them is a miracle to me 'cause they're just on me by the time they spawn, or they give me the courtesy blink on my radar and then I'm practically swamped. Also getting outrun by cryo'ed (non-extra-fast) necros while there are no zombies about is something else entirely (also unrelated to character speed since when cryo'ed they're always the same). It really is just lag and dropped inputs.

          And by this point I'm not surprised you took the same information and arrived at a different conclusion. Different standards of skill between us is the likely cause. What you said about what I think about that is exactly spot on. You can make it a challenge by doing no gear, or no skillset, etc. But actually using all the tools IS making it easy. Hey, if I have a hacking engine and cheat my way through it, it's an available resource and so I must be damned good. I mean it's not provided by the game, but it's still there. In a sense, if cryos are provided by the game, it's TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER (duh). And that reduction in difficulty is the support for the claim that it's not really skillful in the overall sense. Obviously your and my experience differ since while indeed it is less consistent to just spam and spin, considering how well it still gets the job done without trying is already absurd. You're not doing a great job of convincing me that ultra high-leveled apoc is so significantly different if all that changes is zombie health, damage, and speed (and lag).

          But alas, different standards is the only conclusion I can reach here.

          P.S. FPS games are a little different due to 3D space, something that doesn't exist in SAS 4 in a top-down only shooter. Add in to the fact that you can literally see everything coming at you and really what excuse do you have to even compare the two. You really only have a circle to aim at the zombies come at you from linear directions. "But the fact that you couldn't make that correlation suggest that you are quite a novice in gaming, so I would like to inform you that things work differently in actually tough games". Perhaps at this point I CAN conclude that you are pretty noobish if this is what you consider skill, but that's just ad hominem.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Lithe View Post
            Nah it's not hypocritical. The fact that I can use lazy self as a reference point is all I need to know. Also implying that "super sanic" zombies even compare to teleporters and blinkers lol. The fact that you can even see them is a miracle to me 'cause they're just on me by the time they spawn, or they give me the courtesy blink on my radar and then I'm practically swamped. Also getting outrun by cryo'ed (non-extra-fast) necros while there are no zombies about is something else entirely (also unrelated to character speed since when cryo'ed they're always the same). It really is just lag and dropped inputs.

            And by this point I'm not surprised you took the same information and arrived at a different conclusion. Different standards of skill between us is the likely cause. What you said about what I think about that is exactly spot on. You can make it a challenge by doing no gear, or no skillset, etc. But actually using all the tools IS making it easy. Hey, if I have a hacking engine and cheat my way through it, it's an available resource and so I must be damned good. I mean it's not provided by the game, but it's still there. In a sense, if cryos are provided by the game, it's TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER (duh). And that reduction in difficulty is the support for the claim that it's not really skillful in the overall sense. Obviously your and my experience differ since while indeed it is less consistent to just spam and spin, considering how well it still gets the job done without trying is already absurd. You're not doing a great job of convincing me that ultra high-leveled apoc is so significantly different if all that changes is zombie health, damage, and speed (and lag).

            But alas, different standards is the only conclusion I can reach here.

            P.S. FPS games are a little different due to 3D space, something that doesn't exist in SAS 4 in a top-down only shooter. Add in to the fact that you can literally see everything coming at you and really what excuse do you have to even compare the two. You really only have a circle to aim at the zombies come at you from linear directions. "But the fact that you couldn't make that correlation suggest that you are quite a novice in gaming, so I would like to inform you that things work differently in actually tough games". Perhaps at this point I CAN conclude that you are pretty noobish if this is what you consider skill, but that's just ad hominem.
            Zombies don't teleport when you lag, they move >>SLOW<<, which makes it >>easier<< to play. As for getting outrun by necros it's either your character is ridiculously slow or your cryos missed or didn't register correctly.

            There's no challenge by doing "no gear, or no skillset, etc", there's a difference between challenging and impossible. A challenge is challenging your physical (or mental) skills in order to accomplish something, not attempting something knowing it is physically impossible and there's nothing to accomplish. Yes tools make it EASIER (not easy) but that wasn't the argument initially, initially you were saying there was no skill involved which is false, as there is definitely skills involved in using these tools. Also a hacking engine isn't part of the game, therefore technically it isn't an available resource as we're talking about the game itself, not things outside the game. Once again cryos are actually creating a challenge because if cryos aren't used it's simply a gamble on the difficulty of the zombie RNG, to put it simply it decreases your chance to survive up til say wave 52, not by making the game more difficult necessarily but by making surviving against dark minions near impossible if not impossible, especially on maps besides ice station. Think of a lottery, is it hard to win? Hell yeah, but does it take skill? No. It is clear we can make the case here, that not using cryos doesn't necessarily require more skill but rather it decreases your chance of accomplishing your apoc goals by making it RNG luck based.

            I never tried to convince you late apoc was so different, I simply threw out a few facts you had no knowledge of.

            Wow I didn't know FPS games were different and had 3D space, thanks! And you can't see everything coming at you in FPS games? Every FPS game I've played has a radar system that displays the enemy's location when they are firing. It seems you fail to understand the logic of certain vague aspects of FPS games can be applied in a complex bird's eye-view game like SAS 4.
            As for your conclusion, admittedly I have not had much exposure to Steam games but I have had a good amount of exposure to FPS games specifically. If you meant to call me noobish at gaming then you're not completely wrong, but if you meant to call me noobish at FPS games then I totally disagree.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by mopping View Post
              Wow I didn't know FPS games were different and had 3D space, thanks! And you can't see everything coming at you in FPS games? Every FPS game I've played has a radar system that displays the enemy's location when they are firing. It seems you fail to understand the logic of certain vague aspects of FPS games can be applied in a complex bird's eye-view game like SAS 4.
              As for your conclusion, admittedly I have not had much exposure to Steam games but I have had a good amount of exposure to FPS games specifically. If you meant to call me noobish at gaming then you're not completely wrong, but if you meant to call me noobish at FPS games then I totally disagree.
              Lol you make the same type of assumptions in the first part of your post about what I know and have experienced and then get upset when I do it. Alright. I only did that to you to point out that you take a lot of liberties assuming I don't know these things but damn son....at least be a little self-aware.

              I'm done here already. It's quite clear we're not going to convince each other and I'm sure the majority of other people just don't care.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Lithe View Post

                Lol you make the same type of assumptions in the first part of your post about what I know and have experienced and then get upset when I do it. Alright. I only did that to you to point out that you take a lot of liberties assuming I don't know these things but damn son....at least be a little self-aware.

                I'm done here already. It's quite clear we're not going to convince each other and I'm sure the majority of other people just don't care.
                Yes I did, however I stayed on topic while you went off onto something unrelated. While yes, I did make the comparison first, I meant to use it to further emphasize my point and it wasn't of any real significance to the discussion.

                Whatever, good day

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by mopping View Post

                  Please explain how a PC with an AMD Phenom 920 is any good. The amount of lag he had was enough evidence to prove that his PC was in fact horrible. As of right now it is definitely possible to get top 3 with a crap PC, although it would require a significant amount of assistance in virus samples. From my experience even players with bad PC's don't seem to crash in apoc. As for your claim about people getting bored, I agree to an extent, however it would take quite a while before most of the players stop playing.
                  You wrote "horrible". That CPU is only a bit below average, especially if he has overclocked it. He even has in gaming still 39% there.

                  http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTe...-920-Processor

                  And I do crash in Apo, if lag becomes too bad. Either way even before it, huge lag is a disadvantage. If you can't move or shoot anymore, then you need someone else to do the boss killing alone. And with VS you would also need a lot of support. Either way you need some kind of team, who helps you.

                  Although from what I heard, even the top players with good computers don't really do it alone. Generally two people get together all the time and play Apo alone and leave, if they find someone else in lobby. And in VS they also need help to get full lobby games. So people who know no one on NK or Kongregate and try to get into the top 3 on their own, have it really hard, regardless how great their PC might be.
                  Last edited by Meralla; 20-12-16, 01:43 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Meralla View Post

                    You wrote "horrible". That CPU is only a bit below average, especially if he has overclocked it. He even has in gaming still 39% there.

                    http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTe...-920-Processor

                    And I do crash in Apo, if lag becomes too bad. Either way even before it, huge lag is a disadvantage. If you can't move or shoot anymore, then you need someone else to do the boss killing alone. And with VS you would also need a lot of support. Either way you need some kind of team, who helps you.

                    Although from what I heard, even the top players with good computers don't really do it alone. Generally two people get together all the time and play Apo alone and leave, if they find someone else in lobby. And in VS they also need help to get full lobby games. So people who know no one on NK or Kongregate and try to get into the top 3 on their own, have it really hard, regardless how great their PC might be.
                    That CPU is very outdated by today's standards, and its performance is well below average. An average modern intel core i5 would blow it out of the water no question. As for crashing it just means your CPU is weak. I've never crashed in apoc tbh. What you state is exactly where lag gets its advantage, its where you can't move or shoot anymore so that on the other person's screen (assuming he has a strong PC) zombies are hitting you but you aren't taking any damage, this is called lagtank. Yes you are correct that you need a lot of support in VS, however having a lot of lagtank doesn't necessarily mean you need support in apoc, just that you would need more time to make wave 52 games since everything is slower for you.

                    As for apoc, yes, people play duo apoc because anything more is laggy and time consuming, making it simply impractical. Generally diamond winners tend to play with other diamond winners because they are all friends. That's not to say diamond winners never play with non-diamond players, they do quite often in fact, where they just hop in a lobby and play with whoever.

                    As for VS, yes certain people have a lot of help. However in most cases people do their virus games alone. Your last statement isn't completely wrong, however it is very possible to do public apoc games and still obtain the required apoc score to win a diamond position. However this would obviously be more time consuming, as often times a lobby gets filled with 4 players and then everyone leaves, and then it happens over and over again making it hard to even get in a game. If someone had the skill to score 2000 points in apoc with decent consistency, they would quickly find a partner they would be able to score 2k consistently with and they would quickly become friends, so a case where someone is held back from getting diamond because they have no friends is rather unlikely.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BobEatsHicks
                      just face it, you and lithe lost this argument
                      No, I had other things to say, but I refuse to get involved in what has turned into this ridiculous flame war (or what looks to be one).
                      Why earn alloy when you can just buy it? It's only 36 alloy for every $1 million.

                      Why open knowledge boxes when you get them? It's more fun to open 100 in one go cause they're easy to obtain - 1 a day or 100 a month, or... 1000 in half a year if you can be bothered saving that many for that long.... ; )


                      Seems links in the forum are now broken, man I haven't been here in a while. Search 'Sylvan Lawrenz' on YouTube for some of my silly/mature content if you're interested.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        hahahahahahahahahaha~
                        this topic is so funny. realy. it is so funny.

                        someone won Lotto once, so he/she cant get twice.
                        someone had job promotion, so he/she cant get anymore.

                        they all need to let other poeple get. LOL

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by jik96431 View Post
                          hahahahahahahahahaha~
                          this topic is so funny. realy. it is so funny.

                          someone won Lotto once, so he/she cant get twice.
                          someone had job promotion, so he/she cant get anymore.

                          they all need to let other poeple get. LOL
                          Please don't be ignorant about this topic. Those are completely different scenarios which don't apply to this subject. It's a competition. Lotteries are effectively donating to charities for a chance to win some cash back. Getting a promotion is a reward for seniority and for having a good effect on the work area of choice.

                          A basic expectation of a competition is for everyone to have an equal chance of winning if they put their effort into it. Except there is RNG (and more importantly, weapon/armor variation between characters and players) in this game which makes that somewhat ineffective. That isn't the problem in itself as at a higher level you have an extremely high chance of getting the gear you want anyhow. In fact that would be good design as Championships aren't particularly meant for lower levels. That doesn't mean I don't believe lower levels should have prizes, however, and that's why there are tiers of prizes. Anyhow, there isn't any form of skill floor or skill ceiling in this game as skill is almost completely irrelevant. It's all about your gear, how long you can last and such.

                          Two of the problems stemming from Championships are both massive design flaws. There are Black Boxes, which are in and of itself nothing more than a bottleneck for good gear which even drives some players towards hacking. The bigger problem which is adds insult to injury is that Championship Guns are allowed for future Championships. They are by design miles better than most guns which gives them an advantage.

                          I don't believe players should be banned from repeatedly winning. In fact I believe the hate for that is misguided and rather the angst and vitriol is towards the artificial skill gap caused by the aforementioned reasons.

                          So no, after a while of thinking this through, while I certainly won't be blaming the players for anything in particular, I can certainly understand where the anger on this topic comes from.

                          That's all I have to say about this and all I will say. There's no arguments left for this. It's a horse beaten terribly to death at this point.
                          Back and forth we sway like branches in a storm
                          Change the weather, still together when it ends

                          Owner on Xat Chatroom. Also addicted to SAS 4 and AP Grinding on Ninja Kiwi as you might suspect.
                          There's one thing a Saiyan always keeps...
                          HIS PRIDE!!!!!!!!!

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                          • #58
                            i agree championships is way unbalanced i recently got to lvl 100 and the people i come up against in VS is ridiculous super speed, championship weapons, max cored everything there's no real chance for the average player to win so yh no skill all gear ban them all ty

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Well this post got kinda off topic but for the original question. Now. I am now satisfied and will not run for a top 3 rank. (The exception being if someone who consistently left on me in samples is trying for a top 3 spot, I'll come back and drop his annoying ass down to 4th.)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                @jik96431 - champs are not like lotteries
                                Why earn alloy when you can just buy it? It's only 36 alloy for every $1 million.

                                Why open knowledge boxes when you get them? It's more fun to open 100 in one go cause they're easy to obtain - 1 a day or 100 a month, or... 1000 in half a year if you can be bothered saving that many for that long.... ; )


                                Seems links in the forum are now broken, man I haven't been here in a while. Search 'Sylvan Lawrenz' on YouTube for some of my silly/mature content if you're interested.

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