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  • Tower and Power balance suggestions (v6.5.1)

    The suggestions for version 6.5.1 of BTD battles. While Ninjakiwi did a good job balancing some towers, there are still towers left to work with. Powers are no exception; there are powers that easily belong in META, powers that are fairly powerful and powers that you shouldn't waste your slot for.

    ----- TOWERS -----

    Let's begin with the worst towers.

    Spike Factory is a tower that can be used to catch leaks and "charge" popping power to unleash it all at once. But it is barely used in competitive matches. What's wrong with it? The answer: low popping power. This tower and its upgrades lack cost efficiency, and they simply aren't worth it in most situations (unless spike factory is one of your "main popping power" towers). The ability isn't that useless, but it is only effective if there are 1-2 MOABs, BFBs or ZOMGs. It simply does not work well against groups.

    Hey, isn't it supposed to be only good at spaced bloons? If you think about it, it doesn't outstandingly deal against the spaced bloons. And then again, sending a few more ZOMGs or BFBs will already overwhelm Spike Factory and its ability. Would you rather want to deal slightly better with spaced bloons, or just take Ninja, which is also pretty good against spaced bloons + halves the speed of bloons? Anyway, I suggest that Spike Factory's spikes have pierce increased by 60% (ex.: 5 becomes 8). This should be good enough. Don't worry about it getting OP, don't hesitate to experiment with what could diversify strategies even more, after all, I doubt it will cause harm at all! The 4-x upgrade definitely could use a cheaper price.

    Glue Gunner. This is another tower that is barely seen in competitive matches. What are its strengths? It slows down bloons, which gives more time for other towers to pop glued bloons. The 3/2 upgrade can make popping Ceramic bloons after a MOAB is popped much easier. There could be more potential uses, but let's talk about how is this tower obsolete​​​​​. Let's bring up, for example, Ninja Farm Glue strategy. Due to how expensive glue gunner and its upgrades are, it is not viable for early game defense. Ninja isn't much better for early game. What about mid-game (rounds 12-17)? Since you had to spend lots of money on early game defense and focus less on farms, it will be really hard to defend R13 rushes while maintaining half-decent income. Now we are in epic late game. Glue gunner becomes practically useless. Not a good strategy overall, right? Perhaps it's better to replace glue with boomerang, tack or even ice.

    I'm confident that there are better glue strats, but I'm sure that most, if not all of them, have better alternatives without glue. My suggestion: make this tower and its upgrades cheaper. Maybe some upgrade could also make it effect MOABs and maybe a camo-detection upgrade.

    Sniper Monkey. Now this one is clearly meant for spaced bloons. Then again, it also suffers from lack of cost-effective popping power. It seemingly deals well against R13 rushes, but the 2/3 sniper is quite expensive to afford and eventually becomes overwhelmed by a big/smart enough rush. 1/3 sniper leaves lots of bloons, so better upgrade to 2/3. It does quite well against a single MOAB-class bloon, but when there are 2 or more of them, it, again, just loses efficiency. 4/2 sniper is very expensive. Granted, it stalls MOAB-class bloons, or, to be exact, a single MOAB-class bloon. Grouped bloon rushes are in the META, so sniper is not a viable choice here.​​​​​ I suggest giving Sniper Monkey a significant price buff to its upgrades. If it is only good against spaced bloons, why not make it WONDERFUL against them?


    The towers mentioned above require buffs the most. Now it's time to mention more towers/upgrades that could use a buff or two.

    Bomb Tower. Cheap grouped-bloon and MOAB popping power source. This tower is very good if you compare it to Spike Factory, but if you compare it to Tack Shooter, it doesn't seem that good anymore. Main reason why Tack Shooter is more preferred is because of its activated ability, which is really popular, and not lacking ability to pop black bloons. Bomb tower early-game will need support that can strip out black (and zebra later on) layers, and even with a 0/0 dart monkey, it will be more costly than a 2/3 tack shooter. It deals with regen bloons not as well as Tack Shooter. It does not help that Bomb Tower absolutely lacks camo detection (which makes it more comparable to Tack Shooter). Later on, 2/3 bomb towers can help deal with MOAB-class bloons. The MOAB-popping help is not cheap. Tack Shooter does not do bad against MOAB-class bloons as well. 2/4 ability only works well against spaced MOAB-class bloons, the grouped ones will overwhelm even multiple 2/4 towers. That's all I have to say about this tower. My suggestions: 1) reduce the cost of 0/0, 1/x, 2/x, x/1, x/2; 2) x/4 ability deals % of MOAB-class bloon's health damage, which makes it really useful late-game, when MOABs start getting stronger after round 30; 3) increase the overall explosion radius of the tower.

    Bloonchipper is a great tower for dealing with spaced bloons (*cough*), and can be utilized for dealing with MOAB ceramics easily. However, it is a bit underused. This tower is basically Mortar Tower, but with spaced popping power. It can't deal with ZOMGs at all. Mortar's activated ability can very slightly stun ZOMGs at least. Not to mention that Bloonchipper can't detect camos, let alone removing camo properties. I suggest making 4/x affect ZOMGs, except it has longer cooldown dealing with ZOMGs and does not stall them much. Another suggestion is to make it able to detect camo bloons, and/or make early upgrades and base cost cheaper (especially the x/3 upgrade... it sucks right now).


    I've only been talking about buffs, so how about we get into action nerfing towers?

    Monkey Engineer. 4/x upgrade may be too powerful for its cost. The upgrade renders non-camo rushes almost pointless, and even if you rush with camos, you will most likely drain yourself more than the opponent will. By the way, the reason I brought up this tower is due to seeing quite the amount of Ninja Farm Engineer strats absolutely destroying other strats in certain maps, no matter how good the opponent was. I suggest setting a (bigger) cooldown for Bloon Trap, which activates after bloon trap collection. Currently the cooldown activates after the bloon trap was created. Okay, I'm done with 4/x, but I don't see x/2, x/3 or x/4 being used in actual matches. Suggestion: decrease x/2's range and cost, buff x/3 firerate and make x/4 slightly cheaper.

    There may be more overpowered towers, but I definitely want to see less of Ninja Farm Engineer in competitive matches. Nerfing (4/x) engineer would probably help more than nerfing ninja in this case.


    ----- POWERS -----

    I'll start off by saying that track powers are very imbalanced. Road spikes powers (except final tier) are very bad compared to other track powers. Single Monkey Glue glues like 40 bloons, which usually pops more than 300 bloons! Single Best Bundle of road spikes pops 30 bloons. That difference is so HUGE, that road spikes' strengths are out of consideration. Okay, let's compare road spikes to a more popular track power: Lightning Bolts. Lightning Bolts pop up to 400 per use. Best Bundle Road spikes, well, pop 90 bloons if you use them all. I suggest making all road spike powers (except final tier) have 6-8 uses instead. Also, replace Better Bundles with Spike Balls (from 3/x spike factory) and Best Bundles with MOAB-SHREDR spikes (from x/3 spike factory). Spike Balls and MOAB-SHREDR spikes would have less uses.

    Next: sabotage powers. Some are worth using, some are unfairly outclassed by others. First of all, NERF CRIPPLE. It is Better Slowdown, but like 4x better, which is an extremely big difference if you want balanced powers. I suggest making it: 10% slower firerate, 10% less pierce, 5% less range. A tower would have to have at least 3 pierce to have its pierce reduced. Another power I would like to see nerfed is Team Tower Stun, by making towers sell-able, like in Knock-out effect. Also, make the duration depend on map length. For example, duration in Bloon Circles would be about 4-5 seconds, while in Indoor Pools it would be about 1 second, and in average-length map it would be 2 seconds. And last, but not least, Eco Choke. This power is pretty annoying to play against, if opponent uses it correctly. It screws over your early game income, if opponent is a bit aggressive. My suggestion: make Eco Choke have 2 uses, and/or increase the cooldown.

    Last balance change that I'd like to see is nerfing Super Bloon Boost and Jam Packed. I suggest that Super Bloon Boost increases bloon speed by 50% instead of 60%, and Jam Packed makes bloons 50% more crowded instead of 100%. Oh, and buff Crowded Bloons with 100% more crowded bloons.


    That's it for balance suggestions. What I REALLY would like to see implemented is: ability to see your opponents' powers in match. That way, we can effectively play the game, instead of assuming if the opponent has salted wounds or not, and slightly screwing you up if your assumption is incorrect.
    Last edited by If Confused Alligator; 02-01-20, 04:16 PM. Reason: nerfing monkey engineer

  • #2
    Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
    The suggestions for version 6.5.1 of BTD battles. While Ninjakiwi did a good job balancing some towers, there are still towers left to work with. Powers are no exception; there are powers that easily belong in META, powers that are fairly powerful and powers that you shouldn't waste your slot for.

    Sniper Monkey. Now this one is clearly meant for spaced bloons. Then again, it also suffers from lack of cost-effective popping power. It seemingly deals well against R13 rushes, but the 2/3 sniper is quite expensive to afford and eventually becomes overwhelmed by a big/smart enough rush. 1/3 sniper leaves lots of bloons, so better upgrade to 2/3. It does quite well against a single MOAB-class bloon, but when there are 2 or more of them, it, again, just loses efficiency. 4/2 sniper is very expensive. Granted, it stalls MOAB-class bloons, or, to be exact, a single MOAB-class bloon. Grouped bloon rushes are in the META, so sniper is not a viable choice here.​​​​​ I suggest giving Sniper Monkey a significant price buff to its upgrades. If it is only good against spaced bloons, why not make it WONDERFUL against them?
    - Have you actually used sniper? 2/3 can take you from R13 all the way to R19. With your other main tower, 2/3 sniper can defend all-out R13, solo R18 Ceramics/MOAB although a massive all-out R15 lead will put pressure if your main tower doesn't cut lead, but still defendable.
    Currently, on maps with water, I can have a 3/1 boat + 2/3 sniper when R13 starts. If you drop down the cost SIGNIFICANTLY, this means I can get it at R10/R11 and that is 2 more rounds of farm/eco and that is one more 3/1 boat and I probably don't even need to boost to defend R13 which will be totally unbalanced.


    Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
    Bomb Tower. Cheap grouped-bloon and MOAB popping power source. This tower is very good if you compare it to Spike Factory, but if you compare it to Tack Shooter, it doesn't seem that good anymore. Main reason why Tack Shooter is more preferred is because of its activated ability, which is really popular, and not lacking ability to pop black bloons. Bomb tower early-game will need support that can strip out black (and zebra later on) layers, and even with a 0/0 dart monkey, it will be more costly than a 2/3 tack shooter. It deals with regen bloons not as well as Tack Shooter. It does not help that Bomb Tower absolutely lacks camo detection (which makes it more comparable to Tack Shooter). Later on, 2/3 bomb towers can help deal with MOAB-class bloons. The MOAB-popping help is not cheap. Tack Shooter does not do bad against MOAB-class bloons as well. 2/4 ability only works well against spaced MOAB-class bloons, the grouped ones will overwhelm even multiple 2/4 towers. That's all I have to say about this tower. My suggestions: 1) reduce the cost of 0/0, 1/x, 2/x, x/1, x/2; 2) x/4 ability deals % of MOAB-class bloon's health damage, which makes it really useful late-game, when MOABs start getting stronger after round 30; 3) increase the overall explosion radius of the tower.
    - You don't use bomb like how you use tack, period. Both towers are so drastically different. And why would you use bomb with dart when SMFC + Jugg is more efficient? I rather use dart/farm/tact than dart/bomb/*insert tower.

    "Tack Shooter does not do bad against MOAB-class bloons", not sure what you mean here but ROF is useless against ceramics and while Mael can deal with it, camo still bypass it. Bomb can crack ceramics on its own and why would you not have camo-detect if you main bomb?

    "2/4 ability only works well against spaced MOAB-class bloons, the grouped ones will overwhelm even multiple 2/4 towers.", you should check your tower placement and your strat.

    Your change suggestions will make it unbalanced.
    Currently, one mauler needs to shoot 20 times to destroy a MOAB layer and it cost about $2200.
    SMFC strat is more efficient BUT consider this, a 1/3 dart cost about $1000, we would always have a gang of about 8 and with SFMC, the total cost is about $16000++ but if we have camo detect for dart (who doesn't??), it will be much higher. Add in Jugg, we can easily touch more than $20000.
    You can have 7/8 mauler (with frag) + 1 cluster that will EASILY defeat the MOAB and it's child with the same cost, do the math.

    Your change suggestion will undermine the balance. This means that for the same cost of having the set of SMFC, I can have 10 or even 11 mauler (with frag) + 1 cluster

    Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
    Bloonchipper is a great tower for dealing with spaced bloons (*cough*), and can be utilized for dealing with MOAB ceramics easily. However, it is a bit underused. This tower is basically Mortar Tower, but with spaced popping power. It can't deal with ZOMGs at all. Mortar's activated ability can very slightly stun ZOMGs at least. Not to mention that Bloonchipper can't detect camos, let alone removing camo properties. I suggest making 4/x affect ZOMGs, except it has longer cooldown dealing with ZOMGs and does not stall them much. Another suggestion is to make it able to detect camo bloons, and/or make early upgrades and base cost cheaper (especially the x/3 upgrade... it sucks right now).
    - You need to check the change log history of chipper. You are basically trying to undo the balancing that is currently set in place.


    Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
    Monkey Engineer. 4/x upgrade may be too powerful for its cost. The upgrade renders non-camo rushes almost pointless, and even if you rush with camos, you will most likely drain yourself more than the opponent will. By the way, the reason I brought up this tower is due to seeing quite the amount of Ninja Farm Engineer strats absolutely destroying other strats in certain maps, no matter how good the opponent was. I suggest setting a (bigger) cooldown for Bloon Trap, which activates after bloon trap collection. Currently the cooldown activates after the bloon trap was created. Okay, I'm done with 4/x, but I don't see x/2, x/3 or x/4 being used in actual matches. Suggestion: decrease x/2's range and cost, buff x/3 firerate and make x/4 slightly cheaper.

    There may be more overpowered towers, but I definitely want to see less of Ninja Farm Engineer in competitive matches. Nerfing (4/x) engineer would probably help more than nerfing ninja in this case.
    Engineer/Farm/Ninja is quite OP in later stages, given ninja is such a late game.

    Just take them out early game, without box, this strat is extremely weak to early rushes. R8 all-out. I typically win at mid of R9 while still keeping the all-out rush, the R9 nature will help you.

    If you can win early but you choose to go late, you can only blame yourself for losing an obvious win. Its your opponent's problem, not yours, for choosing a strat that is weak to early game rushes.


    Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
    ----- POWERS -----

    I'll start off by saying that track powers are very imbalanced. Road spikes powers (except final tier) are very bad compared to other track powers. Single Monkey Glue glues like 40 bloons, which usually pops more than 300 bloons! Single Best Bundle of road spikes pops 30 bloons. That difference is so HUGE, that road spikes' strengths are out of consideration. Okay, let's compare road spikes to a more popular track power: Lightning Bolts. Lightning Bolts pop up to 400 per use. Best Bundle Road spikes, well, pop 90 bloons if you use them all. I suggest making all road spike powers (except final tier) have 6-8 uses instead. Also, replace Better Bundles with Spike Balls (from 3/x spike factory) and Best Bundles with MOAB-SHREDR spikes (from x/3 spike factory). Spike Balls and MOAB-SHREDR spikes would have less uses.

    Next: sabotage powers. Some are worth using, some are unfairly outclassed by others. First of all, NERF CRIPPLE. It is Better Slowdown, but like 4x better, which is an extremely big difference if you want balanced powers. I suggest making it: 10% slower firerate, 10% less pierce, 5% less range. A tower would have to have at least 3 pierce to have its pierce reduced. Another power I would like to see nerfed is Team Tower Stun, by making towers sell-able, like in Knock-out effect. Also, make the duration depend on map length. For example, duration in Bloon Circles would be about 4-5 seconds, while in Indoor Pools it would be about 1 second, and in average-length map it would be 2 seconds. And last, but not least, Eco Choke. This power is pretty annoying to play against, if opponent uses it correctly. It screws over your early game income, if opponent is a bit aggressive. My suggestion: make Eco Choke have 2 uses, and/or increase the cooldown.

    Last balance change that I'd like to see is nerfing Super Bloon Boost and Jam Packed. I suggest that Super Bloon Boost increases bloon speed by 50% instead of 60%, and Jam Packed makes bloons 50% more crowded instead of 100%. Oh, and buff Crowded Bloons with 100% more crowded bloons.


    That's it for balance suggestions. What I REALLY would like to see implemented is: ability to see your opponents' powers in match. That way, we can effectively play the game, instead of assuming if the opponent has salted wounds or not, and slightly screwing you up if your assumption is incorrect.
    - Why don't you try working on how to workaround these powers instead of trying to "balance" the game to make it easier for yourself?
    They have sabo, sure, you can have them too right?? Don't know how to use, learn it. Hate the new powers, go play in CC. CC too difficult? Stay in yellow stadium.

    "For example, duration in Bloon Circles.........." Now I want to go back down and play this relaxing map again..... sniper/bomb/mortar
    Last edited by LiMitedEditI0N; 12-02-20, 04:59 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      - Have you actually used sniper? 2/3 can take you from R13 all the way to R19. With your other main tower, 2/3 sniper can defend all-out R13, solo R18 Ceramics/MOAB although a massive all-out R15 lead will put pressure if your main tower doesn't cut lead, but still defendable.
      Currently, on maps with water, I can have a 3/1 boat + 2/3 sniper when R13 starts. If you drop down the cost SIGNIFICANTLY, this means I can get it at R10/R11 and that is 2 more rounds of farm/eco and that is one more 3/1 boat and I probably don't even need to boost to defend R13 which will be totally unbalanced.
      With 2/3 sniper, if your 'main' tower hits the 'strongest' bloons, it has to take care of children by self, and it will happen at least a few times during mid-game. Anyway, I don't find it outstanding mid-game; I can name a lot of strats that are about the same cost or cheaper for mid-game rounds. For round 30s, you really need something that can handle all-out zomgs, for example Ninja, or even better, Ace. Spamming snipers is not a good idea: 4/2 bloonjitsu dishes out more damage than 2/4 sniper ( 5(shots)x4(pierce)=20 dmg for ninja; sniper deals 7 dmg; both have similar firerate). 4/2 sniper stalls don't help much when you have 50 zomgs on screen. So far, sniper is not as destructive as you might think. Tack shooter is wonderful early-game, boomerang is wonderful mid-game, ninja is good late-game, ice is a great support (and possibly overpowered). Sniper is meh, it's not very outstanding, and that's the problem.

      You need to see it in practice vs. tryhards in highest arenas. Yes, I am a highest arena player. And don't worry about the buffs, they will only make sniper more popular and possibly refresh the meta, which, by now, has gotten really dry.



      - You don't use bomb like how you use tack, period. Both towers are so drastically different. And why would you use bomb with dart when SMFC + Jugg is more efficient? I rather use dart/farm/tact than dart/bomb/*insert tower.

      "Tack Shooter does not do bad against MOAB-class bloons", not sure what you mean here but ROF is useless against ceramics and while Mael can deal with it, camo still bypass it. Bomb can crack ceramics on its own and why would you not have camo-detect if you main bomb?

      "2/4 ability only works well against spaced MOAB-class bloons, the grouped ones will overwhelm even multiple 2/4 towers.", you should check your tower placement and your strat.

      Your change suggestions will make it unbalanced.
      Currently, one mauler needs to shoot 20 times to destroy a MOAB layer and it cost about $2200.
      SMFC strat is more efficient BUT consider this, a 1/3 dart cost about $1000, we would always have a gang of about 8 and with SFMC, the total cost is about $16000++ but if we have camo detect for dart (who doesn't??), it will be much higher. Add in Jugg, we can easily touch more than $20000.
      You can have 7/8 mauler (with frag) + 1 cluster that will EASILY defeat the MOAB and it's child with the same cost, do the math.

      Your change suggestion will undermine the balance. This means that for the same cost of having the set of SMFC, I can have 10 or even 11 mauler (with frag) + 1 cluster
      You certainly need some other defense with ROF against ceramics, for example, a blade shooter; the setup costs about the same as a bloon impact cannon.
      Maybe 2/4 ability isn't that bad, but oh well. Last time I checked it out, it seems to be struggling against r30s all-outs.
      Then again, it doesn't seem to be outstanding. It does not seem to pair well with farms, and eco strats aren't very good in general. It has potential though, don't get me wrong. It won't hurt to buff it a little bit to make bomb strats put off a serious fight against strats such as Heli Farm Ice, Ninja Farm Engineer.


      - You need to check the change log history of chipper. You are basically trying to undo the balancing that is currently set in place.
      It was meta literally because of 2/4 ability taking it to round 150, and I don't recall 4/2 being OP during those times. If 4/2 got the ZOMG suckability back, it would probably be nerfed so it would have more cooldown, less damage etc.



      Engineer/Farm/Ninja is quite OP in later stages, given ninja is such a late game.

      Just take them out early game, without box, this strat is extremely weak to early rushes. R8 all-out. I typically win at mid of R9 while still keeping the all-out rush, the R9 nature will help you.

      If you can win early but you choose to go late, you can only blame yourself for losing an obvious win. Its your opponent's problem, not yours, for choosing a strat that is weak to early game rushes.
      Not extremely weak, it is not very costly to defend r8 with engineers. And the strength of this strat is that it can generate great amounts of money in short time, while being able to survive a bit late. It's not as broken as it sounds though.
      I often change my mind about what should be nerfed or buffed, but engineer seems like the type of tower that would use some mechanic tweaks rather than a buff/nerf.



      - Why don't you try working on how to workaround these powers instead of trying to "balance" the game to make it easier for yourself?
      They have sabo, sure, you can have them too right?? Don't know how to use, learn it. Hate the new powers, go play in CC. CC too difficult? Stay in yellow stadium.

      "For example, duration in Bloon Circles.........." Now I want to go back down and play this relaxing map again..... sniper/bomb/mortar
      No need to be arrogant, I am giving feedback, which Ninjakiwi could note for their future updates. It is no secret that Eco Choke is annoying especially if you have a strat that relies on getting a costly defense early-game (ex. heli, sub or boomer starting combined with farms). It unnecessarily limits the amount of good strategies. Same with some other powers/combinations. It just makes gameplay kind of rock-paper-scissors, and that's gross.
      I try to work around these powers, but I might be screwed if the opponent unexpectedly uses some rare power. That's why I ask for the feature that lets us see which powers the opponent has, so we don't have to rely on guessing. No more wasting $1000 and 2 lightning bolts to prevent non-existant salted wounds.
      And also let us see the towers opponent has, so we will be able to strategize and adapt. No more all-outing r13 against HIV player, who actually has tack shooter instead of ice or village!
      Last edited by If Confused Alligator; 18-02-20, 04:01 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
        With 2/3 sniper, if your 'main' tower hits the 'strongest' bloons, it has to take care of children by self, and it will happen at least a few times during mid-game. Anyway, I don't find it outstanding mid-game; I can name a lot of strats that are about the same cost or cheaper for mid-game rounds. For round 30s, you really need something that can handle all-out zomgs, for example Ninja, or even better, Ace. Spamming snipers is not a good idea: 4/2 bloonjitsu dishes out more damage than 2/4 sniper ( 5(shots)x4(pierce)=20 dmg for ninja; sniper deals 7 dmg; both have similar firerate). 4/2 sniper stalls don't help much when you have 50 zomgs on screen. So far, sniper is not as destructive as you might think. Tack shooter is wonderful early-game, boomerang is wonderful mid-game, ninja is good late-game, ice is a great support (and possibly overpowered). Sniper is meh, it's not very outstanding, and that's the problem.

        You need to see it in practice vs. tryhards in highest arenas. Yes, I am a highest arena player. And don't worry about the buffs, they will only make sniper more popular and possibly refresh the meta, which, by now, has gotten really dry.
        I disagree, thats not how we use sniper.
        You haven't a clue of how sniper works in game, everything that you mention is just off wiki/hearsay/rumors.
        Snipers have infinite range and instant hit damage (theres no projectile travelled at all). The moment any bloons sets foot on the lane, it is hit, which means, your "main" will never hit any bloons first. This is why we set sniper as strong so that it always targets lead/zebra/rainbow/ceramics first and leave the child for your main to finish off. This practice is the complete opposite of your claims that the main hits the strong and the sniper picks off the child.
        Based on this, I’m pretty sure you have never used sniper.
        Have you actually seen how 2/3 sniper handles r13 all out, r15 regrow lead/ceramics, r18 regrow lead/ceramics + MOAB? As I’ve already said, it will carry you to R19, at which, your main needs to already be buildup. Sure, a 3/2 boat and a 2/3 sniper can carry me to R19 but who only has 2 towers at this stage if you are not planning to end at R20??
        Also you are comparing a support type tower to main tower like ninja/ace(depending on usage). And also, you cannot just compare one tower to the other, like, Ice and sniper because it’s the overall strat that counts, not the singular tower. You can have Ice but if your strat does not sync well, its useless.
        And why would I want to play into R30 when I can end the game at R13/15/18/22?

        Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
        You certainly need some other defense with ROF against ceramics, for example, a blade shooter; the setup costs about the same as a bloon impact cannon.
        Maybe 2/4 ability isn't that bad, but oh well. Last time I checked it out, it seems to be struggling against r30s all-outs.
        Then again, it doesn't seem to be outstanding. It does not seem to pair well with farms, and eco strats aren't very good in general. It has potential though, don't get me wrong. It won't hurt to buff it a little bit to make bomb strats put off a serious fight against strats such as Heli Farm Ice, Ninja Farm Engineer.
        The setup of bloon impact is way more expensive than maelstrom. You need the whole of 4/2 for bomb while its 0/4 for maelstrom moreover tack upgrades are much cheaper on every step.
        Also, I don’t think anyone would be using 2/4 for R30 when in fact, shouldn’t you be massing 2/3 and buy-sell 2/4 (you don’t even need to do this) instead? You DO know that 2/4 does the same damage as 2/3 apart from assassinate ability right?? Its only logical that $2000 is better spent on one more 0/3.
        IMO, its not that eco strats are not good, it’s dependent on the map and effectiveness of your strat. (I just realized that dart/farm/bomb used to be the thing, never used it though)
        The only serious bomb strat I used was ninja/bomb/farm, to be fair, its difficult to use especially early game but easy once I survive R13. I find most strats with bomb to be defensive on the nature and to the point of being total passive if my opponent decides to pressure.

        Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
        It was meta literally because of 2/4 ability taking it to round 150, and I don't recall 4/2 being OP during those times. If 4/2 got the ZOMG suckability back, it would probably be nerfed so it would have more cooldown, less damage etc.
        I don’t play this meta so I don’t know the details, but its definitely not due to 2/4 alone. From my experience with playing against this meta, the base setup is always placing 4/2 in front and 2/4 further down a bit. I have never seen 2/4 alone by itself, you make it sound like all you have to do is just to spam 2/4 around the map.


        Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
        Not extremely weak, it is not very costly to defend r8 with engineers. And the strength of this strat is that it can generate great amounts of money in short time, while being able to survive a bit late. It's not as broken as it sounds though.
        I often change my mind about what should be nerfed or buffed, but engineer seems like the type of tower that would use some mechanic tweaks rather than a buff/nerf.
        I really don’t think theres any issue with this strat. Its fine how it is, ive defeated this strat via rushing R8, R20, R24-R25
        I have seen people defended R24 ZOMG, its OP at the middle stage but still, imo, not very impressive. This strat will face problem if you drag to R42 end game, but then again, who plays such long games at MOAB pit and above?

        Originally posted by If Confused Alligator View Post
        No need to be arrogant, I am giving feedback, which Ninjakiwi could note for their future updates. It is no secret that Eco Choke is annoying especially if you have a strat that relies on getting a costly defense early-game (ex. heli, sub or boomer starting combined with farms). It unnecessarily limits the amount of good strategies. Same with some other powers/combinations. It just makes gameplay kind of rock-paper-scissors, and that's gross.
        I try to work around these powers, but I might be screwed if the opponent unexpectedly uses some rare power. That's why I ask for the feature that lets us see which powers the opponent has, so we don't have to rely on guessing. No more wasting $1000 and 2 lightning bolts to prevent non-existant salted wounds.
        And also let us see the towers opponent has, so we will be able to strategize and adapt. No more all-outing r13 against HIV player, who actually has tack shooter instead of ice or village!
        Theres no arrogance here, you are overthinking it. FYI, it’s the very same statement that is thrown around when people complain about it, #deal-with-it
        Also, if you are really a “highest arena player”, you shouldn’t really worry about eco-choke. In fact, it’s a huge relief if they pick this because I will worry more about tower blindness and team stun, which if used and managed well, is even more deadly and can be instant good game.
        Isn’t this game in fact rock-scissor-paper, no? The gameplay is already limited by the concurrent meta, which itself, already sets the “standard” for the best strategies which most will use.
        Not sure about you, but I never carry the same set of powers across all maps. I mean, who uses salted wound on maps like ice flow where you can easily expect boat usage? Who doesn’t carry and use at least intense power and quick shot when you play mountain, zen garden or inkblot?
        The point on able to see opponent’s powers and towers is just total lame….. its like, can I play ladder frozen throne with full map visibility? IMO, this is the worst possible thing to suggest.
        At least, suggest something creative like ROF having 2 mode, a fission and fusion, fission which is the current one and fusion where the tower pulls everything in a set circular AOE, blows flame inside before releasing the child layer out (back to where it was pulled in from) and to get pulled in again. (kind of like chipper but with a set circular AOE instead)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LiMitedEditI0N View Post
          I disagree, thats not how we use sniper.
          You haven't a clue of how sniper works in game, everything that you mention is just off wiki/hearsay/rumors.
          Snipers have infinite range and instant hit damage (theres no projectile travelled at all). The moment any bloons sets foot on the lane, it is hit, which means, your "main" will never hit any bloons first. This is why we set sniper as strong so that it always targets lead/zebra/rainbow/ceramics first and leave the child for your main to finish off. This practice is the complete opposite of your claims that the main hits the strong and the sniper picks off the child.
          Based on this, I’m pretty sure you have never used sniper.
          Have you actually seen how 2/3 sniper handles r13 all out, r15 regrow lead/ceramics, r18 regrow lead/ceramics + MOAB? As I’ve already said, it will carry you to R19, at which, your main needs to already be buildup. Sure, a 3/2 boat and a 2/3 sniper can carry me to R19 but who only has 2 towers at this stage if you are not planning to end at R20??
          Also you are comparing a support type tower to main tower like ninja/ace(depending on usage). And also, you cannot just compare one tower to the other, like, Ice and sniper because it’s the overall strat that counts, not the singular tower. You can have Ice but if your strat does not sync well, its useless.
          And why would I want to play into R30 when I can end the game at R13/15/18/22?
          I am setting snipers to 'strong'. What I meant was that if your 'main' tower hits, for example, a few zebras from constant grouped zebra rush, i has to deal with the child bloons by itself because sniper will keep hitting zebras until opponent stops rushing (not to mention regen bloons). Sniper destroys bait rushes r13, but vs all outs you need an extra sniper or boost and hope your opponent doesn't send pinks on top of the rainbow rush. Placing a tower other than sniper causes the problem described above if the all out is big enough and YOU'll need to place it to defend pinks, else you're screwed. In summary, r13 all out defense is pretty expensive if your opponent is smart.
          As I said, sniper not being really outstanding is the problem. It's not worth wasting a tower slot just to get barely cheaper popping power vs spaced bloons, let alone the not very reliable r13 defense.
          You can always end the game at R13/15/18/22. You didn't say that you win the game, so... (there are situations where you have to take it lategame to possibly win)

          Originally posted by LiMitedEditI0N View Post
          The setup of bloon impact is way more expensive than maelstrom. You need the whole of 4/2 for bomb while its 0/4 for maelstrom moreover tack upgrades are much cheaper on every step.
          Also, I don’t think anyone would be using 2/4 for R30 when in fact, shouldn’t you be massing 2/3 and buy-sell 2/4 (you don’t even need to do this) instead? You DO know that 2/4 does the same damage as 2/3 apart from assassinate ability right?? Its only logical that $2000 is better spent on one more 0/3.
          IMO, its not that eco strats are not good, it’s dependent on the map and effectiveness of your strat. (I just realized that dart/farm/bomb used to be the thing, never used it though)
          The only serious bomb strat I used was ninja/bomb/farm, to be fair, its difficult to use especially early game but easy once I survive R13. I find most strats with bomb to be defensive on the nature and to the point of being total passive if my opponent decides to pressure.
          Bomb strats (mainly the farm ones) dropped off the meta because people have found better alternatives to their strats. Bomb is only quite good with eco and cobra strats. It might also work well with dartling farm. As for eco strats, I'd rather use HIV or NIV.

          Originally posted by LiMitedEditI0N View Post
          I really don’t think theres any issue with this strat. Its fine how it is, ive defeated this strat via rushing R8, R20, R24-R25
          I have seen people defended R24 ZOMG, its OP at the middle stage but still, imo, not very impressive. This strat will face problem if you drag to R42 end game, but then again, who plays such long games at MOAB pit and above?
          Ninja Farm Engineer can literally be unbeatable in some maps. It can drain you easily if your strat is decent at late-game, and it can't really be drained by other strats if used correctly due to the bloon trap upgrade generating a lot of money. In some cases it can start sending infinite ZOMGs at late 20s and you can't do anything about it. At least it's not as good in other maps.

          Originally posted by LiMitedEditI0N View Post
          Theres no arrogance here, you are overthinking it. FYI, it’s the very same statement that is thrown around when people complain about it, #deal-with-it
          Also, if you are really a “highest arena player”, you shouldn’t really worry about eco-choke. In fact, it’s a huge relief if they pick this because I will worry more about tower blindness and team stun, which if used and managed well, is even more deadly and can be instant good game.
          Isn’t this game in fact rock-scissor-paper, no? The gameplay is already limited by the concurrent meta, which itself, already sets the “standard” for the best strategies which most will use.
          Not sure about you, but I never carry the same set of powers across all maps. I mean, who uses salted wound on maps like ice flow where you can easily expect boat usage? Who doesn’t carry and use at least intense power and quick shot when you play mountain, zen garden or inkblot?
          The point on able to see opponent’s powers and towers is just total lame….. its like, can I play ladder frozen throne with full map visibility? IMO, this is the worst possible thing to suggest.
          At least, suggest something creative like ROF having 2 mode, a fission and fusion, fission which is the current one and fusion where the tower pulls everything in a set circular AOE, blows flame inside before releasing the child layer out (back to where it was pulled in from) and to get pulled in again. (kind of like chipper but with a set circular AOE instead)
          Eco choke is basically the oldest version of eco amplifier (which was nerfed), except it shifts the match towards early-game rather than late-game. Team tower stun can be countered by putting defense on front; if you use tower blindness, you will say "hi" to those minigun monkeys and they'll make you wish you went for some other power instead.

          I'm sure being able to see opponents' strats would be very appreciated at least by competitive players. I want to say that you are absolutely not a competitive player or you really like the gambling aspect of the game.
          By the way, about the "2 mode ROF", it's not worth making such big ('creative') changes to towers at this point. Better suggest it to BTD6.

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