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  • Spike Factory buff suggestions

    After months and months of constant refinement of buff suggestions, I have finally got the most sensible solution to buffing the Spike Factory – add 20% more spikes to each of the upgrades. So 6 spikes for normal spikes, 12 spikes for Bigger Stacks, 24 spikes for Spiked Balls.

    At the moment, the Spike Factory is far too easy to become overrun by grouped bloons and requires far too much commitment to defend with Spike Factories. In one of my recent tournaments, Qwertyxp2000, I have done a tournament with Spike Factories and several other weak unindependent towers and have noticed how the eco for both players is very low even when the Spike Factories are barely surviving against Grouped Bloons. If in a real quick-game battle, the Spike Factory defense would certainly be completely overrun starting from Round 6 unless the player gets a grouped-bloon slower, which further hurts player income.

    Also, Spike Factory still currently does not make a reliable exit-stopper due to the very low lifespan of the spike piles and the slow rate of spike production, so any bloons that go through the defenses would probably be pretty major, like around 100+ RBE. One 0/x Spike Factory can only really stop about 30-50 RBE, while a 1/x Spike Factory can only really stop about 60-100 RBE. For $600 and $1150 respectively without the Path-2 upgrades, that could be spent on better defenses such as upgrading existing towers. Also, even a 3/x Spike Factory still currently does poor as an exit-stopper for its price of around $3850-$5350, which also can be spent on better defenses for other existing towers, due to being only really affordable in mid-game and beyond, as well as popping only around 120-200 RBE (if none of the bloons are Ceramics). If we increase the number of spikes per pile by 20%, and thus increasing possible RBE popping by 20% too, that should make it a little more reliable as an exit-stopper without being far too reliable.
    If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

  • #2
    I think the main problem is that the spikes despawn too soon.

    In BTD5 and BMC it makes sense, but for Battles the rounds go non-stop, and more likely than not you won't have those spikes up for 70 seconds (which is how long they stay on the two versions mentioned.), but the current 20 is too low since you can only ever get up to 9 spikes with a 0/0 spike factory.
    Ratings, Accepted DCs, My NK Mods, Friday the 13th - NK Day of the Dead, My TK reworking ideas
    Originally posted by Junior Monkey;n138814
    Formerly made Ninja Kiwi great again, I wish I still could.

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    • #3
      Hmm. It interests me that spikes last 70 seconds in BTD5 and BMC but 20 seconds in BTDB. If only up to 9 spikes on 0/0 Spike Factory, then it's around 45 RBE. But even so, spikes are just way too easy to overrun and Spike Factories cannot keep up with the pace when spikes get used up on bloons.
      If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

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      • #4
        And plus, I'd rather attempt to go on the safe side and go 20% increased number of spikes. Lag is much caused by the number of spikes on the track, so compensating spike pile lifespan with extra pierce would be helpful. In the Flash BTDB, the Spike Factory has 10 spikes per pile but shoots twice as slowly, I think twice as slowly but definitely slower than normal.
        If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

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        • #5
          spike factory should be nerfed

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HAMBURGER123 View Post
            spike factory should be nerfed
            please explain
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            • #7
              In my belief, I don't think there needs nerfing of the Spike Factory at the moment. And I doubt whether the comment even is genuine or not.
              If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

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              • #8
                Playing Bloons TDX has me realize: Battles in general just doesn't emphasize spaced Bloons nearly well enough. Only Pinks really get anywhere because they're fast enough. Most other Bloon send types may as well be just added RBE, which benefits towers that focus on hitting clusters at the cost of leak catching ability more than the game should. What does this have to do with Spactory? Simple: it focuses on the latter. Think about it: it's a burst damage tower so naturally being closer to the exit is desirable at least on paper and it would get to regenerate its power if it gets stress relief, it layers all its power where any opposition would go through, and it innately hits Camos but needs an all but AWFUL upgrade to damage Leads.

                I think the real problem, beyond other balance issues (HELLO, SIGNAL FLARE), is that Spactory is simply lacking a sense of offense whatsoever. I'll first point out, granted, that I can easily argue about how Spactory benefits from being closer to the player's defenses because the Spactory hitting capacity anyway means there's no point in the Spactory being closer to the exit. Of course, players not knowing how to use Spactory in a more methodical manner that would make sure NinjaKiwi's sense of game balance would be disproven from how it makes Nintendo's look subtle, doesn't fix its underlying problems. Part of me is sure that the 20 second lifespan is overkill anyway, but even without that problem, there's still the low production rate preventing Spactory from even being worth considering anywhere close to the entrance. I get that 2/3 Spactory and especially x/4 Spactory are supposed to reward crafty play. The problem is that crafty play has to have some sense of flow anyway or it's not going to see the light of day.

                BTDX went with spike piles having a lifespan of 45 seconds, the halfway mark between the 5/MC amount and the Battles amount in case you couldn't tell. It also has 6 spikes per pile compared to 5/MC/B's 5. That's a burst damage value of 108, compared to the 150-155 in 5/MC. I think the answer, however, lies in attack speed. Obviously, the piles' lifespan should be kept proportional to the amount of time between attacks, but the attack rate itself should also be improved. The important point is to reduce the Spactory's complete reliance on burst damage, because that's not going to get it anywhere in the least.

                ...oh, so lag is a thing. Okay. With that taken into account, here's what I would suggest should be done to Spactory assuming 5/MC costs and frame values assuming 60FPS:
                -Layer Popping per base spike 1 -> 2 (this would also be assumed as default for the other general Spactory levels)
                -Lifespan frames 1200 -> 1700
                -Base level attack rate frames 138 -> 170
                -Layer Popping per 2/x spike 1 -> 3 (provides upgrade with something useful other than destroying Leads, but doesn't make it too easy to use)
                -Ceramic Layer Popping per 3/x spike 3 -> 5
                -4/0 attack rate frames 62 -> 72
                -x/1 cost $800 -> $600
                -x/1 attack rate frames 86 -> 106
                -x/2 cost $1250 -> $1000
                -x/2 attack rate frames 52 -> 64
                -x/3 cost $3000 -> $3500
                -x/3 attack rate frames 32 -> 44

                How's that sound? Keep in mind that the layer popping thing would be pretty big, hence all the frame data increases.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Master Knight DH View Post
                  [...]

                  ...oh, so lag is a thing. Okay. With that taken into account, here's what I would suggest should be done to Spactory assuming 5/MC costs and frame values assuming 60FPS:
                  -Layer Popping per base spike 1 -> 2 (this would also be assumed as default for the other general Spactory levels)
                  -Lifespan frames 1200 -> 1700
                  -Base level attack rate frames 138 -> 170
                  -Layer Popping per 2/x spike 1 -> 3 (provides upgrade with something useful other than destroying Leads, but doesn't make it too easy to use)
                  -Ceramic Layer Popping per 3/x spike 3 -> 5
                  -4/0 attack rate frames 62 -> 72
                  -x/1 cost $800 -> $600
                  -x/1 attack rate frames 86 -> 106
                  -x/2 cost $1250 -> $1000
                  -x/2 attack rate frames 52 -> 64
                  -x/3 cost $3000 -> $3500
                  -x/3 attack rate frames 32 -> 44

                  How's that sound? Keep in mind that the layer popping thing would be pretty big, hence all the frame data increases.
                  In BTD Battles Mobile, Faster Production (x/1) costs $600 at the moment, while Even Faster Production (x/2) costs $900 at the moment.
                  If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From what I noticed, the spike factory is more optimized on mobile than on flash, so I wouldn't be concerned about lag. At least you can't lag out your opponent with just a couple spike factories on Mobile, while it could do that on Flash.

                    But to give as a point of reference, the spikes from the spike factory can start despawning by the end of round 1 to start of round 2. If it went to 70 seconds, the spikes would last up to round 4, which should be long enough to get up a good sized spike pile for later rushes.
                    Ratings, Accepted DCs, My NK Mods, Friday the 13th - NK Day of the Dead, My TK reworking ideas
                    Originally posted by Junior Monkey;n138814
                    Formerly made Ninja Kiwi great again, I wish I still could.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hmm... Which of the following combos will produce the most spikes: two 0/0 Spike Factories, one 1/0 Spike Factory, or one 0/1 Spike Factory?
                      If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

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                      • #12
                        As of now two 0/0 spike factories are most cost efficient.
                        Ratings, Accepted DCs, My NK Mods, Friday the 13th - NK Day of the Dead, My TK reworking ideas
                        Originally posted by Junior Monkey;n138814
                        Formerly made Ninja Kiwi great again, I wish I still could.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Or just give more spikes/pierce per pile. Makes spac better at all levels without lag.
                          I saw a button that said edit post signature so I did.

                          I forgot I have a Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ0...Fww_A1N9cIWF_g

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BTD Battles Scrub View Post
                            Or just give more spikes/pierce per pile. Makes spac better at all levels without lag.
                            I strongly agree with this statement. For starters, a 20% increase in spikes will make a good starter at the current stage of buffing the Spike Factory.
                            If I can complete any Daily Challenge NAPS, then it should be extremely easy to complete.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by qwertyxp2000 View Post

                              I strongly agree with this statement. For starters, a 20% increase in spikes will make a good starter at the current stage of buffing the Spike Factory.
                              6, and 12, and whats that number for Spike Ball. Scrub’s lag idea will need to be implemented in some way, like upgrading their total count, or show less entities on screen, however that has drawbacks of its own
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